Friday, March 30, 2012

The End Of Hypergamy? Not So Fast . . .

One of the things that sucks about blogging is that there are often too many subjects about which to expound going on at one time.  You simply can't write about everything.  Thankfully, the Manosphere is a a gloriously churning maelstrom of vigilance, and you can count on one of your Manosphere brethren to watch your back on important issues.  And, in this case, one of the Manosphere sisteren.

Honorary Manosphere pundit Susan Walsh over at Hooking Up Smart had a lovely piece today examining Liza Munday's contentions in her new book, The Richer Sex.  I encourage you to check it out.  Susan dissected the overtly feminist work with admirable Red Pill perspicacity, and in particular recognized something that Ms. Mundy apparently has not: Men aren't terribly thrilled with what they have lost due to the rise of female earning power.

I want you to read the whole post, but of particular note is this astute observation Susan makes:

Apparently, Mundy describes the cheerful male helpmeet greeting his frazzled wife with a glass of wine at the end of the day at least half a dozen times in the book. It sounds more like Mad Men in reverse than a plausible scenario for American married couples. I also find the reference to manly pursuits extremely patronizing and hypocritical – is this the enlightened version of the 1950s sewing circle?




Why no, no it is not.  Thank you, Susan.


The Red Pill truth of the matter is that women who "marry down", whether you use income, class, or education as your metric, take a very real hit to their social status by doing so.   Women in aggregate are highly judgmental, and as they continuously seek to establish their place in the social hierarchy of women, after determination of marital status and childbearing status, the status of the woman's husband is often factored in even before her own professional success is taken into account.


I happen to have grown up in a very science, technology, and medically-oriented burgh, and I spent most of my 20s, as I was hacking my way painfully through college, working in offices because I have more sense that to work construction.  I was a male clerical worker (mostly temp jobs) for nearly ten years.  I got to work in every kind of office a major metro area has to offer, from insurance to medical to computer to pharma to the local public school system.  I was a regular cubicle hound for years.   So I got to witness the female social network in action, up close and personal, over and over again.


I was fortunate enough to work under some crackerjack female managers, as well as some real screachtards.  But as I evaluated the power centers of each new job (a vital step for a young male in the minority) I began to notice some interesting patterns.


For example, I once worked in one of the medical departments for a university hospital, directly under one of the most competent managers I've ever had.  Dr. X had two advanced degrees, loads of professional accolades, and a generous salary, not to mention perks and honors that come with such a position.   But Dr. X was married to a very intelligent man who was pursuing a MFA in creative writing . . . and had been for over a decade.  He had also yet to publish anything.  


Now Mr. X's non-existent teaching salary was about what Dr. X made in her first quarter.   He was a "house husband", even though they employed a housekeeper.  I met the dude at two different functions, and he was the consummate Beta: intelligent, caring, deeply concerned for community affairs and very supportive of his wife's career . . . but behind his back the line of shit that got talked about him was impressive.  "Golddigger", "Gigolo" (the first time I've ever heard that term used to refer to a husband that way) and other epithets were whispered, and sympathy for "Poor Dr. X" about her loser hubby who wouldn't get off his ass and get a real job were gossip-fodder all night long.  


He was just the kind of sensitive house-husband Liza Mundy was speaking of when she was talking about the new "acceptance" by men of their new roles.  Mr. X was viciously emasculated, and Dr. X was professionally damaged by that.  And with no children involved, the level of loathing by these women was intense.  Despite their sympathy for the good Doctor X, the other women who controlled the department severely discounted Dr. X's leadership abilities based almost solely on her (to them) poor skill in selecting a mate.  She "married down", and that put a negative spin on what was an otherwise robust career.  Mr. X was "holding her back", "dragging her down", and she was "carrying him".  There was even open speculation as to whether or not she would be open to the possibility of an affair.


Let's contrast that to Ms. Y, another mid-level manager I worked for in the private sector.  With two masters degrees and a decade and a half of experience in her industry she was at about the same professional level as Dr. X, but Mrs. Y was married to an entrepreneur and developer.  He had even used her money to start his company and get his first few projects going.  He was just shy of a bachelor's degree, but his high-profile projects pushed him into social circles he likely wouldn't have been privy to, otherwise.  Ms. Y repeatedly used Mr. Y's company to look for sales prospects, and vice versa.  When Ms. Y needed sponsors for charity events or promotions, Mr. Y's company was there, and when Mr. Y's company needed corporate sponsorship for something, she made sure her company got behind it.  


Add in one terribly cute adopted baby and you have a real Power Couple.   And that's the only way a woman can survive the stench of "marrying down" on her career.


I put up with this myself, from time to time.  Yes, Ms. Ironwood out-earns me, even at her state job, and has limitless potential to pile up dough in the private sector some day.  Me, I've about maxed out my salary potential as a copywriter, and the only way I can increase my income is through freelance or writing books.  Since that's an option, I'm not intimidated by my wife's success -- I've been telling her for years I'm worth tens of millions in potential intellectual property rights.  But if I hadn't had my very first submission get published and hit the New York Times Best Seller's list, making me a by-gods Author instead of a poor college student with a day-job, it would have been a different story.   That was enough of a status-boost in my community to make us a "power couple", not a career woman with a husband who did something creative or something while he took care of the kids.


Look at the reaction to Demi Moore's highly-popularized union with Ashton Kutcher, compared to the Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie couple.   Demi's image was hurt (except among cougars who were hungry for some validation of their own middle-aged lusts for young flesh) by her pairing, whereas minstrels wrote epics about Brangelina's relationship.  Being a Power Couple energized both of them, whereas Demi was brought down in status while Ashton went up.  


I know, I know, comparing celebrities to real people is just wrong.  But it illustrates my point: not only have men not accepted their "new role", neither have women.   Because in the judgment of the female social matrix women who cannot attract a superior mate to themselves are themselves downgraded, regardless of their accomplishments.  
Women now account for the majority
of higher-educated workers.


And that doesn't even get into the profound alienation that men feel about the whole idea.  


Understand first that men naturally compete -- with other men.   That's been the gold standard since the Time Before Writing.  What we competed for wasn't important -- it was the competition that mattered.  That spirit has been enshrined in competitive sports and other endeavors in every human culture.  Men compete.  Against each other.


But with industrialization and a flood of women entering the workforce back in the 1960s and 1970s, and then the next wave of professionals and information-class female workers in the 1980s and1990s, men were faced with the uncomfortable prospect of competing with women for jobs, not men.  And they considered the competition unfair.  While three decades of corporate culture in which women were not only involved, but were actively working to promote and advance other women (when they weren't sabotaging them to get ahead) has given us a fairly workable set of social and legal rules regarding the workplace, that doesn't mean that men have embraced the idea.  Hell, some barely accept it, and others refuse to work with women at all, becoming self-employed rather than deal with a female superior.


Women have made significant gains in the workplace,
particularly in middle management.  This has not translated
into higher feminine happiness.  Nor into attractive mating
possibilities.


Indeed, men have not embraced the idea of women in the workplace the way that feminists wanted them to.  Not at all.  Feminist ideology stated that once there was legal and cultural parity between men and women in the workplace, then both could compete for the same jobs based on merit, from a level playing-ground.  Once women started moving into positions of power, men would naturally come to respect them for their leadership abilities and follow them just as well as they would follow a man.  


In the Feminist Utopia, a strong, independent woman was valued by the men who were her subordinates.  And if they didn't have respect for her, then that was due to their sexism and chauvinism, not due to the faults or flaws in the female executive in question.  Laws and cultural diversity classes would be brought to bear, forcing men to acknowledge and support the superiority of their female superiors, while a sisterhood of career women mutual supported and mentored each other to break the glass ceiling, take control of the corporate state, and eventually re-shape the world in their image with the happy obedience and willing cooperation of their re-educated male colleagues.


Women have long complained about men not doing
a fair share of housework.  Now that housework parity has
been achieved, professional women are finding that they are
not as attracted to a domestic house-husband as they would
have thought.


Didn't quite work out that way.


Feminism missed a lot about this.  And one of the big things that they missed was the fact that men don't like competing with women -- and when they are forced to, they rebel.  Since the law and corporate culture prohibit an active rebellion without retribution, men take the road of the Puerarchy, and go subversive.


It's not an organized subversion as some feminist speculate -- there is no vast, right-wing anti-feminist cabal who has a 10 year plan to put every woman in the world back into dependence on a man.  Or if there is, no one has invited me to it yet.  No, resistance to female authority and female competitors happens because when placed in a competition with both men and women, men often discount the women out of the equation.  They can justify this because of the "advantages" that just being female grants their colleagues.  


And this helps explain one of the reasons why young men are so reluctant to marry: they no longer view women as equal partners or even potential subordinates in a relationship.  Faced with highly-competitive females at work who are operating aggressively in competition, these Guys (hard to call them Men until they get made Men) it becomes that much harder to drop the competitive nature of intergender relations long enough to do more than hook up -- and certainly not enough to wed.  


Women are scary to these guys. 


They often have power over them (middle management seems replete with single women in their late-30s and early-40s who have devoted so much to their careers that they're still single -- and will likely die that way), they always have the power to hurt them just by suggesting you said something inappropriate, and they can use unfair advantages of flirtation and even affairs with senior management to advance their careers . . . while being publicly appalled about such things.  After being challenged at work all day, forced to compete against women, the allure of a "dude's apartment" complete with beer signs, videogames, and non-stop internet porn seems like Valhalla.   


Anecdotal evidence tends to suggest that men with female superiors feel
less compelled to achieve, and are over-all less ambitious than their
male-led peers.  Some ambitious men studiously avoid female-led positions
due to the unlikelihood of getting a future raise or promotion
and the higher likelihood of sexual harassment charges.




Consider the raunchy Comedy Central show Workoholics, focused on three stoner loser roommates who work in a cube farm for a ball-busting bitch of a (pointedly single) female executive who regularly dominates, emasculates, and berates them.  It's a paen to the Puerarchy.


Do they respect their successful and aggressive female manager?  They fear her -- but any loyalty due her is purely based on her very low  expectations of their performance, not because she has earned it in their eyes.  The Workoholic Guys endure work, they tolerate their boss, but they have no ambition to achieve because they know such ambition is often singled out and punished.  Besides, why go to all that trouble if you're just going to get your legs cut out from under you again?  Better to go home and grind on Halo 3 for nine hours straight before whacking off to porn, passing out, and then getting up and doing it again the next day.  They rarely even make the effort to meet girls, much less pursue them.   And trying to impress them with false expectations of future potential is just too damn hard to do convincingly.


Relationships?  They get enough of that shit at work.


The Guys are certainly not eager to jump into a marriage with a woman -- they saw what happened to their fathers' generation, and things are looking even less rosy now.  They're content to pursue their personal interests at home, keep their damn mouth shut at work, and most don't have more ambition than to stay employed for the next decade.



Meanwhile, the Girls (the Guys' female contemporaries) are discovering that the same dudes they eagerly compete with at work have zero respect for them "as women".  That is, they don't want to date.  They want to have sex, sure, but the Guys don't want to invest anything into a relationship with a Girl from work.  That's just asking for trouble.  


At first that works out fine for both, as both are fully immersed in hookup culture, complete with friends-with-benefits and booty calls.  But as a few years go by and the early 20s become the mid-20s, the Girls quickly get tired of the hookups and start to pursue "real" relationships.  Only they are being frustrated by the utter disinterest that's being shown in them.


That's highly frustrating to a generation of women who were taught -- incorrectly -- that the road to masculine respect and admiration was through career success.  And it is -- for other men.  But while a dude will certainly look at a woman's career and earning prospects as a plus, in most cases, if they are too much over his own then he's going to loose interest quick -- we know what happens when you go down that road.  No one wants to have to ask his sugar mama for beer money.  Past a certain point, career success actually starts hurting a woman's prospects of finding a marriageable mate.  And without one, her future in the increasingly female-dominate workforce is very limited.  She might break the glass ceiling, but if she doesn't have a husband then despite four decades of feminist propaganda the female social matrix discounts the woman's status dramatically.


So how does the Feminist Utopia deal with marriage, then?


According to standard feminist ideology, marriage, when entered into at all (it being an essentially oppressive custom of the fallen Patriarchy, after all) is to be no less than the perfect union of equals . . . though in practice any marriage where the man actually takes any leadership role is usually condemned in feminist circles as atavistic.  Despite that, feminists are themselves locked into the female social matrix.  If they don't "marry up", then they get accused of bagging a "Nigel" (as in "men are horrid creatures who have oppressed women for centuries, using their superior strength and position to dominate us -- but Nigel doesn't believe in all of that, do you dear?")-- what the Manosphere refers to as a White Knight or a Manigina.   Nigels are the epitome of the sexless submissive Beta male -- just the perfect kind of mate, according to feminist ideology.  


Only feminists despise Nigels.  It comes across in every post about them in feminist discussion groups.  They betray their own ideology with their loins, and often leave poor Nigel by the side of the road after a few years in pursuit of the Alpha cock they've starved themselves for.  Feminists may say they love Betas, but they're voting with their vaginas . . . and eventually some of those dudes, embittered by their rejection, find themselves in the Manosphere.


From a feminist perspective hypergamy isn't a problem -- it's a solution.  Rejecting inadequate males after using them for resources (emotional support, sperm, additional revenue) in favor of a higher-status male is in itself status-building in feminist circles -- basically what that horrid Eat, Pray, Love woman did.  Hypergamy proves their personal superiority to their first husbands, and even to their second husbands.  


So the idea that Hypergamy is going to vanish now that women earn more than men is just bullshit, any more than the idea that men stopped objectifying women in the workplace just because of sexual harassment laws.  No matter how many happy, smiling Manginas Ms. Mundy exhibits as proof that men have "embraced" their new testicle-light role, the rest of us know it's Blue Pill bullshit.   Men, as Men, are rejecting that role and going their own way, marrying down themselves or not marrying at all, or marrying third-world brides with more traditionally Agricultural Age concepts of matrimony.    That's the factor that Ms. Mundy hasn't examined.   The rejection of the American Working Woman by the American Working Man, unless the matter of children is involved.


Some feminists see this as a plus -- the idea that a man and woman should need to be married in order to support each other flies in the face of feminist rhetoric about independence.   Dr. Emily Nagoski, noted Sex Nerd, has proudly trumpeted the fact that she and her romantic interest don't "need" each other (which makes any talk of marriage just seem silly), they stay together because they "want" to.  They love each other, and love alone should be enough to establish and maintain a relationship, independent of economic concerns.  Or, as one sarcastic feminist commented, 


Yeah, God forbid she actually stick around because she LIKES the dude or anything. Can’t have that.



Well, no.  No, we can't.  Why not?  Because men, in aggregate, don't want that kind of marriage.  Its one based on their ability to be entertaining, and once that stops, the relationship is OVER and they know it.  Or, as I responded to the above-sarcastic feminist:



Well, that is kind of the point. 
Most men view marriage as a life-long commitment that may possibly include reproductive rights, certainly involves combining finances and financial security, implies certain legal and ethical obligations, certainly includes a sexual component, not to mention establishing an entirely new family built around the compromises of blending your individual family cultures. His wife will be what socially defines him and will be how other men in his masculine culture will judge him. 
And you think that a man should make a decision and establish a commitment that weighty based on your willingness to “like a dude”? 
What happens if you stop “liking” him? You leave? Take his kids? Half his stuff? Because you “just aren’t happy” or “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”, and “I settled prematurely (!)” or any other EatPrayLove rationalization? Because you met another dude you like a little bit better? I mean, is it any wonder that older women are discovering that men in their brackets are more than a little “commitmentphobic” . . . because actual commitment to a marriage has been pretty thin on the ground for the last forty years. 
Yeah, Goddess forbid she stick around because she actually made a COMMITMENT to a dude or anything. Can’t have that.



To which she replied, basically, 


Why turn down money in the family because it’s got girl cooties on it?


Because it's not about the fucking money.  That's what they don't understand.  They want to think it's about the money, so they're the first to say it's NOT about the money, that the money doesn't matter.  And it doesn't, but not for the reasons they suspect.


Men look at resources and wages and earning and success very differently than women.   Women feel that they should enjoy the same prestige among men that a man would get for that level of success -- but men aren't giving it to them, and they're not getting much more from other women.  Why?  Men see wages and income and professional success as a means to an end: to attract a high-quality mate.  Women see wages and income and professional success the same way . . . only men aren't attracted to security issues the way women are.  


It's like the metrosexual dudes who think if they look pretty enough and smell good enough and lack hair in all the right places, they'll find Ms. Right.  The problem is that as much as women enjoy good-smelling dudes who look pretty, good looks are not the primary motivator of their sexual attraction cues.  Money and security is.  That includes emotional security, of course, so a successful career woman may indeed find a man who fulfills that emotional need (she doesn't have a financial need) . . . but the moment she marries him, the power and sex balance has been broken.  He needs her for financial security and she needs him for emotional security, but emotional security isn't a recognized metric among the female social matrix.  


But the sarcastic feminist won't recognize that.  She maintains "There’s nothing about economic security that makes people have to act like jerks." Of course, the caveat is that she means that "there's nothing about economic security that makes MEN have to act like jerks" -- no doubt if it's a woman who is suddenly demanding economic security from a man in the process of divorce, she's entitled to whatever she can squeeze out of him, as per standard feminist practice.   


If a woman happens to be a SAHM and wants more control over the household income, her husband will be labeled a "jerk" or worse if he doesn't grant it by feminists.  But if a SAHD wanted to control the finances of the household, assuming a much wealthier wife, then he's labeled a "controlling loser jerk" and conventional wisdom says "she can do better".  Hypergamy, alive and well.  





There is one bright bit of sunshine from this gloomy picture, though.  Thanks to the new economic parity between men and women, I think we'll see some punitively unfair divorce laws overturned a more and more high-profile wives get divorced by their less-well-earning husbands.  After we see a few female execs get taken to the cleaners by their boy-toys, we'll see a feminist cry about further divorce reform to "protect the right of a woman to generate and control her own capital" or something like that.  Predatory husbands who Game these old broads and then dump them a few years later for half their fortunes will change a few tunes.  Perhaps enough to even begin to approach fairness in divorce laws.


But as far as Liza Mundy's contention that men are learning to accept and embrace their new roles, despite the implicit emasculation involved?
"Oh, shut up about your 'lost masculinity' . . . it's not like I was going
to let you use it anymore, anyway!"

Don't count on it, Cupcake.


23 comments:

  1. Is the Cher/Demi Moore switch a joke I'm not getting?

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  2. Great article, Ian!

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  3. There. Sorry. That's not really my baliwick.

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  4. "Nigels are the epitome of the sexless submissive Beta male -- just the perfect kind of mate, according to feminist ideology.

    "Only feminists despise Nigels... Feminists may say they love Betas, but they're voting with their vaginas . . . and eventually some of those dudes, embittered by their rejection, find themselves in the Manosphere."

    Such a great summation- after acquiescing and contorting their behavior to whatever they think would align with what they're taught, when the attraction falls, they feel cheated out of their end of the contract. I think a core problem is the co-dependent beginnings of this- not trusting enough in the rightness of yourself and your own authentic response, and instead coming to believe you need to perform a certain way to be loved. Turns out, maybe we're better off being unapologetically honest from the start and listening less to the siren song of feminist ideologues.

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  5. Outstanding post. This may be the best article I've ever read on this subject.

    The next time a woman or white knight complains about men who don't want to "man up", I will point them to this article. (Probably won't do any good, but hey... it can't hurt to try.)

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  6. This is a great post, thanks for writing it. Much appreciation for the link as well. Also, the vintage images drive the point home perfectly.

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  7. I have a question: why does it seem like in the later part of your post that you reject the idea of marrying for love? I know you say "well what if she falls out of love." But when a person marries for security....if they suddenly no longer need that security (receive an inheritance...or you marry the actress/artist/waitress/poet and her acting/art/writing/etc takes off and she's no longer in need of your money, she can leave. If she marries for security, as soon as that is fulfilled by something else, OR worse, as soon as you lose your job/hit financial hardship, she is out of there. But if she truly loves you, the odds of her "falling out of love," is unlikely. I would be more afraid to be w/ someone who was using me than someone who was in love with me.

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    1. I'm not sure you followed the entire post. There is quite a bit that of subtext that Ian covers regarding all of the factors behind marital relationships (all inter-gender relationships really, but marriage is the specific focus here). Your example of a actress/artist having a career that takes off leaving her husband needs a reality check. Why? Because it does happen and regularly (I can name one in the last few months even though I do my best to ignore the celebrity gossip culture around me). Ask any of them and they will say they "married for love, but fell out of it". Your questions appear premised on the idea that women and men think the same way... yet this entire post is about how they do not.

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  8. It's not that I wholesale reject the concept of marrying for love, I just think its a woefully inadequate to base a marriage around.

    And that's the point: A lot of women who are "in love" with their husbands mysteriously fall "out of love" with their husbands when a better deal comes along. Not just "sometimes" -- a LOT.

    But if she truly loves you, the odds of her "falling out of love," is unlikely.

    You're advocating for "Twue Wuv", here: the idea that Romantic Love is the highest ideal to which a woman should aspire, and when she feels the lack in her life then she is completely justified in changing her situation in pursuit of "Twue Wuv", regardless of the consequences.

    And the problem is . . . guys believe that shit.

    Really. When we say "I do", we're usually serious. And when the shit hits the fan, we're willing to grind our way through to better times. But when "Twue Wuv" is used as a rationalization for why his life should suddenly end as he knows it, then the idea of banking on taking her words at face value seems more and more foolhardy.

    Romantic love is a great concept, but it is a conceit of the female mind that it should be the entirety of the factors used to determine whether or not a relationship is permanent or not. Staking your life, your fortune, and your future children on whether or not she "truly" loves you is putting all of your chips on red when the majority of the wheel is black.

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  9. "And that's the point: A lot of women who are "in love" with their husbands mysteriously fall "out of love" with their husbands when a better deal comes along. Not just "sometimes" -- a LOT."

    I think it is more like this: A lot of women who are "in love" with their husband's bank accounts mysteriously fall "out of love" with their husbands when a better deal payday (er boyfriend) comes along. Not just "sometimes" -- a LOT.".... I think men not wanting a woman who loves him for him, is like holding a neon sign that says "use me for my money, until someone richer comes along to replace me." When you're in love, that person is irreplacable.

    And what about those people who both dont make much, the two 28 yr olds who make approx $30k a year each or the other end the two doctors who meet during residency and get married and both end up making around $200k+ or the two heir/heiress types who dont need each other's money but grew up in the same circles/boarding schools, etc and get married....? In none of these cases, do the spouses need each other financially, but they marry because they want to. And in the case you present...why would a man want to be with a wife who is really only there because she needs him? When alternatively, he could be loved for who he is not what he do for her.

    Now, I am not saying any of this as the uber-executive chick. I'm an actress/temp. So for obvious reasons, I do want someone who can provide stability b/c we cant raise kids on what I make BUT I soooo wish I didnt need that. Because if I didnt...if I won the lottery or something, my dating pool would be much broader I could just marry someone kind and smart. It wouldnt matter if they were a poet or a banker.

    But honestly I think marrying for love has more integrity than marrying out of necessity.

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    1. "So for obvious reasons, I do want someone who can provide stability b/c we cant raise kids on what I make BUT I soooo wish I didnt need that."

      What is preventing you from being the breadwinner and allowing your husband to be a stay-at-home father? Why must you be the one who is provided for? This is another reason why men are tired of women; they want the best of egalitarianism and the best of traditional roles. Salad bar feminism, if you will. Guess what? Men don't want to deal with the grind, too. How about giving us some options?

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  10. The examples you provide are actually illustrative of my point. The first two are cases in which financial concerns are secondary to love, at first -- but you would think that because of that, since the couples were marrying for love first and foremost that their unions would survive longer and be happier, since money and economic necessity are not issues. Only they don't survive longer. In fact, such unions wither with startling frequency as the money that didn't matter more than love becomes more about power than about resources. And in the case of a very wealthy couple, the mingling of the two fortunes might not be an obstacle to happiness, but only because both could employ a phalanx of lawyers to negotiate the terms of the union on their behalf, with prenups and the whole bit.

    My point is that marrying "for love" first and foremost gives you slightly worse odds, statistically speaking, than playing the same color on roulette over and over. Love in conjunction with personality compatibility, sexual compatibility, congruent family cultures, finances and future plans all taken into account makes a strong union -- placing bets all over the board, in essence, dramatically increasing chances of a successful outcome.

    So how does marrying for love imply more integrity than marrying out of -- let's not say "necessity", for we all have choices -- marrying for economic impulsion, sexual compatibility, or cultural congruity? I'm not knocking love -- but the feminine impulse to use "Twue Wuv" as a rationalization for their behavior, often very impulsive and potentially damaging behavior, has rarely done them any favors.

    There is a whole subculture of women who had mid-life crises in their late 30s-late 40s and are possessed of a strong desire to not be married to their perfectly nice, stable husbands. Often they wish their husbands would have an affair and give them an excuse, and sometimes they will have an affair to precipitate a divorce. More often they just hand them the "I'm not happy" line and start packing. They're not "in wuv" with their husbands anymore, and so therefore any behavior is justified to find "Twue Wuv". That's essentially the plot of "Eat,Pray,Love".

    And do these women find fulfillment? No . . . anywhere from six months to eighteen months later, as their husbands suddenly discover that 40 year old dudes are HIGHLY attractive to 30 year old women, these women realize that the "Twue Wuv" they were chasing was an illusion. There are no hidden Prince Charmings waiting to whisk them away to Aspen and buy them pretty things. The impulse to chase "Twue Wuv" in fact robbed them of the very love that they felt they were missing -- worse, it left their families shattered and condemned most of them to dying loveless, alone and bitter, knowing that they've made a horrible mistake. There are whole blogospheres devoted to these women.

    Love is great. I love love. It's an essential part of a daily breakfast. Don't misunderstand me. But when Love becomes "Twue Wuv" and convinces you that the cute guitar player living out of his van only needs the love of a good woman to see him burst into a highly grateful success, that's when you have to fall back on reason, intuition, and common-sense. And most women don't -- they're blinded by either their hearts or their vaginas or a combination of both. And the losers of the world thank you for it.

    The rest of us . . . not so much.

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  11. Okay, maybe there is a mis-communication here. When I say love I mean love based upon "personality compatibility, sexual compatibility, congruent family cultures, and future plans"...the only thing I took out of your list was finances. Because while it is on my list for husband traits I see it as separate from "love." To me, if money/currency disappeared from the world, would you still love him? ....if the answer is no, then that's not love.

    As for the Eat-Pray-Love bashing that I see so much of in the manosphere, it always makes me laugh and think, clearly these men did not read the book...because 1) she voluntarily handed over all her money to him in the divorce to be allowed to end the marriage 2) he was not stable, he never had a career or direction of his own 3) she goes to great lengths to explain her remorse for having hurt him by ending the marriage. 4) she describes her role in her past relationships as provider/supporter, going into financial debt at times to support the guy...that's hardly what I think of when I think "selfish woman." Selfish women want the Chanel not Gucci, damnit and baseball sized diamonds.

    I read and enjoyed EPL, not for relationship advice b/c clearly she made bad choices (the first being someone who was not able to stand on his own two feet) but b/c of the spiritual/meditative journey that had she been a man or a never-married woman would have equally valuable but not subject to so much judgement. Example... On the Road was spiritual journey to find God written by a devotee of St Therese. And Gilbert in EPL talks about St Therese and her writings on meditation in detail. It's just funny to me that all anyone in the manosphere seem to think in regard to the book is housewife leaves successful husband. When really she was a sucessful working woman with a husband who did not contribute in any way and was making it difficult for her to pursue the very career that was financing his life.

    But whatevs...I dont get fantasy football, so I dont expect men to get EPL.

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  12. oops.... that was supposed to say: I read and enjoyed EPL, not for relationship advice b/c clearly she made bad choices (the first being MARRYING someone who was not able to stand on his own two feet)

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  13. As far as EPL goes, it's not the money that matters. It was the highly, highly insulting position she took in divorcing him for no really good damn reason. She didn't try to work it out or deal with it like an adult, she cut and ran and left him in her wake, a piece of human debris unworthy of further consideration. Glad she's remorseful -- that doesn't excuse her behavior. She hurt a good man for no higher reason than her own selfishness, when she had vowed and committed to do otherwise.

    The resentment at EPL you sense in the Manosphere is very real. We see it as a celebration of the cult of divorce and a justification for dumping the perfectly decent guy who's planning on spending the rest of his life with you on a whim. She can justify her bullshit with saints and bodhisattvas all she likes, but I'd be suspect of the spiritual worth of a woman who could pursue spirituality with a straight face after betraying her holy vows so lightly.

    There are all kinds of selfishness, material selfishness being just the most obvious. Did she try to discuss her feelings with her husband? Invoke his aid? Work it out? No. She utterly discounted him. No, he wasn't tearing the world up with his success, but neither was he bottoming out. But she got bored, horny, and so she left his dick in the dirt, because she was EMOTIONALLY selfish. I'd almost rather have a financially selfish woman to contend with -- at least you could trust that they would stay consistent.

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    1. Fair enough. I grew up with the opposite... seeing men cheat and initiate divorce and leave their wives for younger versions. (not my dad or men I was related to but men who married in or couple my parents knew). So it's hard for me to buy into the whole female cult of divorce but obviously enough men talk about it, so it obviously exists even if I've never seen it first hand.

      Actually, I do know of two woman in the past 10 yrs who dumped their husbands for no good reason. But those were only two cases and only in recent yrs compared to the TONS of men I've known to do it for yrs and yrs of my life.

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    2. Two of my sisters-in-law have done it a total of three times, now. I've known two women who've done it at least twice, each. It's almost a sick joke at this point.

      I agree that cheating men are plenty responsible for their share of divorces, but either way you look at it, it's breaking a vow. And if you can't live up to a solemn vow, then how can society take you serious as an adult?

      That's what it comes down to in the Manosphere: frivolous divorce has contributed to the strongly-held opinion that women can't be trusted to be honest about their relationships. This opinion has even been echoed by some women. Hard to accept that, but then trust women in every other aspect of their lives.

      I'm very thankful I have Mrs. Ironwood. I seem to be enough to keep her from getting bored.

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    3. Really, JS? TONS of men? You may have experienced it, fair enough, but this is anedoctal evidence. The real data says the opposite. In fact, in most of the cases, it's the women who file for divorce.

      Read http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/is-frivolous-divorce-overstated-in-the-manosphere/

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  14. My experience is the same as described by JS. It was my Dad who cheated, my uncles who cheated, my boyfriends who cheated. This was what I saw, this is what I feared. Maybe they were just all alphas who had a lot of other options when their relationships turned unhappy. I know women leave because they're unhappy, but I've seen men leave more often.

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  15. Hey anon, I have seen more women leave than men. It seems to be the trend with a lot of women in the last ten years or so. It really doesn't matter what our experience has been. The data shows that women initiate 70-75% of divorces mostly for weak-ass reasons: "I'm bored " I'm not happy" " I'm not in love anymore" " I want to go find myself ". Sadly,because of the anti-male bias in custody matters and divorce laws, there is no incentive for these women to keep their vows. I think because good women would never do this,they project their character onto other women and don't believe there could be as many selfish women as there actually are

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  16. Guys who cheat and get caught get called on it.

    Women who withhold sex don't.

    As far as I'm concerned both are violations of the vow.

    Perhaps more men cheat, perhaps not. I'm certain that more women withhold sex.

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