Wednesday, January 16, 2013

Breaking Beta: Mike Makes A Breakthrough


A friend of mine had a Red Pill breakthrough I’d like to share.

He’s a nice guy, and a Nice Guy, a Beta (actually, more of a Delta or Gamma, but we’ll use the alpha/beta dichotomy in this instance) in his late 30s who has been in and out of relationships his entire life.  He often makes poor choices when it comes to mate selection, and once he’s in a relationship he loses Alpha at a predictable rate . . . with predictable results.

He’s got a sister, whom he’s somewhat close to, and his sister has a friend – let’s call her Candy – who he’s not particularly close to but who has been a part of his life because she’s his sister’s BFF.  As he explained, she’s flaky as hell and irresponsible about just about everything, can’t seem to keep a man or a job (she’s a dog groomer), and spends her life, well, like a 30 something flaky chick usually does.  She hasn’t hit the Wall yet, apparently, but it’s right around the corner, and she’s got no idea.

Anyway, Candy is about a 7 on a good day, a 6 normally, and is headed for Fiveland on the evening bus.  My friend – let’s call him Mike – is comparable, having recently completed a technical degree and started a new job, as well as working out a bit.  Mike was attracted to Candy once, years ago, but her personality and proximity soon made her a woman to tolerate, not to date.  Besides, as his sisters BFF, she was hands-off.

But Mike is a Nice Guy, and over the years he’s been forced to do all sorts of shit for her out of politeness and filial duty to his sister.  At this point, he can’t stand her much at all, but she’s still under the impression that he’s been harboring a secret crush for all these years.

Last month, Candy apparently broke up with her boyfriend – again – lost her job – again – and had to move out of her apartment – again.  Mike lives over an hour away, within driving distance, but his new job makes it hard for him to go visit his sister often.  He thinks it’s a comfortable distance for kin, but apparently not enough to make him Candy-proof.  She called him up one Saturday morning, and he’d just read something I’d written over coffee, and he was feeling . . . rebellious.

The conversation went something like this – the texts are accurate, but I’m paraphrasing and adding my own interpretation of the phone conversation.  But from what Mike said, this is how it went down:

8:00 text from Candy:  need ur help today
8:05 text from Mike: ?
8:11 text from Candy: need to use ur truck. I need to move out today.

Now, Mike had plans that Saturday.  He’d just gotten his first paycheck that didn’t evaporate into bills, he didn’t have a girlfriend, and he was going to go knock out some errands and play disc golf with a couple of buddies and maybe go out to dinner after.  It wasn’t anything formal, but they were plans.

8:13 text from Mike: I have plans sorry
8:15 text from Candy: cancel them I need u!!!!!!!
8:16 text from Mike: to help u move?  WTF?
8:18 text from Candy: YES!!!!!  Need to be out by tonight.  Thank you!
8:19 text from Mike: I didn’t say id do it
8:21 text from Candy: of course you’ll do it
8:22 text from Mike: no.  good luck.


Now, y’all don’t know Mike.  That ‘no’ was right up there with the ‘no’ Caesar screams at a human for the first time in Rise of the Planet Of The Apes (the original version, of course, although they kept it for the modern one).  It was the first sign of defiance toward a woman I think I’ve ever heard him say.  Ordinarily he would have cancelled his plans, raced over to be the hero, gotten two beers and three slices of pizza and paid for a tank of gas for his trouble.

For Mike to say ‘no’ was profound.  He had a moment of clarity, he said.  He realized that she was going to use him for his resources and send him on his way without so much as a peck on the cheek – and for a man about to turn 40, that was suddenly . . . unacceptable to him.

8:25 text from Candy: wht do u mean???
8:26 text from Mike: I am not going to help you today.

(note he spelled it out on purpose to make his point)

8:29 text from Candy: just get over here
8:31 text from Mike: no

Around 8:40 his phone rang.  It was Candy.  He almost let it go to voicemail, but like I said, he was a rebellious Beta, and he was making the most of it.  He wanted to speak to her personally.

“Hello?”

“What the hell is your problem?!?” she asked, angrily.

“What do you mean?”

“Why are you being so stubborn?  I need you!”

“No, you need a moving company.  Or a U-Haul.  But you don’t need me.”

“Mike, you know I can’t afford a U-Haul or a moving company!  I need your truck! That's what friends are for!"

"So when was the last time you helped me out with something?"

There was a long moment of silence.  Then:

"Come on, why are you being like this?”

“Being like what?  I never said I'd help you.  Shit, I didn't even know you were moving.  I have plans.”

“Plans more important than helping me out?”

“They’re plans.  They’re my plans.  Candy . . . look, sorry if it’s a problem for you, but this is my Saturday, and I made plans to do stuff.  This is the first I’ve heard about helping you move, using my truck, or anything.  I don’t want to drop everything and cancel my plans at the drop of a hat.  I don’t want to spend two hours on the road just to help you move.” He was trying to be nice.  Of course, she was extremely understanding.

“I thought you were my friend!”

“Remember just a moment ago, when I asked you what you had ever done for me?  Crickets.  If we had any kind of friendship, you should have been able to think of something.  Shit, why isn’t my sister helping?”

“She is!  She said she’d get you to help!”

“You were misinformed.”

“Mike, you’re being a dick!  Just come help me!  Please?”  (At this point, he said, he was tempted to waver.  He really was.  When a woman says ‘please’ like that, it’s hard for a Beta to say ‘no’.  I’m proud of Mike.  He persevered.)

“Why should I help you, Candy?”

“Because we’re friends!  And friends help each other out!” she pouted.

“So when was the last time you helped me out?” he repeated.

Dead silence.  He let it hang there past the uncomfortable point.  He didn’t budge.  I’m proud.

“I don’t need this shit, Mike.  I don’t know what your problem is, but you’re being a dick and I resent it.”

“So you can’t think of any single thing you’ve done lately – or ever, actually – to help me out.  But you want me to drop everything and help you move again.”

“Well you’ve got the truck!” she said, like it was obvious.

“Yes, I have the truck.  I’m still making payments on it.  Why don’t you have a truck, Candy?”

“You know I can’t afford a car payment on what I make!”

“Sounds like you should have made better career choices.”

“Why are you doing this to me?”

He thought for a moment, and then remembered something I’d said in our last pep talk.
“Candy, are you my girlfriend?”

“What?  What do you mean?  No!”

“Exactly.  And either I’m your boyfriend and I help you move, in which case you’re fucking me, or I’m your girlfriend.  And if I’m your girlfriend, then I’m going to weasel out of helping you move just like my sister.”

“What kind of fucked-up talk is that?”

“Look,” he said, only half-serious – he said he was joking.  “The only way I’d come and help you move today is if you paid for gas, paid for lunch, and then fucked me rotten afterwards.  Are you likely to do that?”

“HELL, no!”

“Then good luck in your future endeavors, Candy.  I’m going to grab a shower.”  Click.

I’m so proud!

But it doesn’t end there.  Mike took a shower, got dressed, and was puttering around, watching television when his sister called.

Now, Mike is fairly close to his sister, but they butt heads frequently, just like every pair of siblings.  He figured there would be some blowback.  When he picked up the phone, it was immediate.

“What the hell are you doing, asshole?”

“Hi, Sis!  What’s up!”

“I just got off the phone with Candy.  She said you were a rude asshole to her.”

“I wasn’t.  I just didn’t do what she wanted me to do.”

“I told her you’d help her move!”

“You didn’t ask me.  I have plans.”

“You can reschedule.  Candy needs us.”

“Oh, so you’re over there helping?”

“No, I don’t have a truck,” she explained, patiently.

“My truck is going to be in use today.  Look, the most I’ll do is let you swap cars with me, but I’m not driving all the way over to ______.  You drive over here, pick up the truck, and we can swap back when you’re done.”

“Why are you being such an asshole about this, Mike?  She said you tried to have sex with her!”

“No, I pointed out that we weren’t having sex, she wasn’t really a friend of mine, and that I really didn’t see any reason why I had to help.”

“Because you’re a nice guy!  Come on, everyone knows how nice you are!”

“Not anymore.”

Silence.

“What happened to you?  Is it a girl or something?”

“No.  Maybe it’s just that I’m tired of being used and even loaned out by the women in my life.  What the hell has Candy done for me – not for you, but for me?”

“She’s my best friend!  I’m your sister!”

“So you go help her.  But a man can either be a boyfriend to a woman or a girlfriend.  If I’m her boyfriend, she’s fucking me and I help her move.  If I’m her girlfriend, then I have plans, better things to do, that sort of thing.”

“That’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard!  You’ve known Candy for years!”

“And she’s never done jack for me.  Look, if it was you moving, I’d be there.  But it’s not, it’s her.  I don’t even really like her.  So you deal with it, if you have to.  But don’t promise my help for your friends anymore.  That’s rude and disrespectful.”

“What the fuck is wrong with you?  Why are you being this way?”

“I’m tired of being used,” he repeated.  “Hey, if she wants to trade sexual favors for moving help, I’d be open to that.  But I leave here around ten, so if she’s going to act on that, she’d better call soon.”

“You want to screw Candy?” she asked in disbelief.

“I’d consider it in return for services rendered.  Or cash.  But my time and energy are valuable, and you need to start realizing that.”

“Valuable?  What the hell are you doing today that’s so important.”

“I didn’t say it was valuable to you.  But I’m done doing favors for Candy.  And your other friends, too.  I’m either a boyfriend or a girlfriend, and I can only be a boyfriend to one woman at a time.”

“What the fuck happened to you?  You used to be such a nice guy!”

“I woke the fuck up.”  Click.

If you knew Mike, you’d know just how big that was.  It was the first sign of a spine he’d shown in years.  Refusing Candy’s inconsiderate request was pretty big on its own.  Actually hanging up angrily on his big sister was a huge move.  He’s still far from finding his Alpha, but he’s moving in the right direction.  And he wouldn’t have done it if it hadn’t been for the Manosphere.

We’ve all known women like Candy: they’re flaky as hell.  They wait until the last minute, they don’t plan, they don’t follow through, and when things inevitably fall apart they try their best to get other people to clean up their messes.  And during it all not only is this kind of flake not grateful, if things don’t go the way she wants them – even if she’s imposing on the kindness of others – she doesn’t hesitate to throw a hissy cow over it.  She feels entitled to your help because she is just so darn special that she deserves it.

It’s important also to realize the scope of such social entanglements of a particular man.  We talked about this in depth, and Mike realized that he had probably a half-dozen women in this non-sexual “antiharem” that he will run off to the moment they need help, use him, and then send him on his way with little more than “thanks!” and “You’re such a nice guy!”.  I know for a fact all but one of these women has rejected Mike in the past.

There are certain women (and there seem to be a lot of them) who feel compelled to fill the hours of any man they deem “unproductive” by imposing on him for such favors.  Often they will talk a great game about equality and fairness, and then beseech you prettily until you acquiesce to help them with their problems.  Then, if you propose anything more personal, you get a “I just don’t like you in that way” and “I think we should just remain really special friends”.

Which is code for “I don’t want to fuck you”.

So the Betas who find themselves frequently in this embarrassing position need to discover the ability within themselves to stand up and defiantly say ‘no’ to even reasonable requests for a while.  A man doesn’t hesitate to do a friend a favor, but when the “friendship” consists of how much work/time/energy/money a woman can wring out of you, then you’re essentially voluntarily grabbing your ankles and asking for more on every occasion you see them.  “What have you done for me?” is a perfectly acceptable response to the kind of “Can you help me out?” request from one of the Eternally Flaky.

But beyond that, resist allowing your time or energy or money to be determined by the women in your life.  Mike’s sister overstepped her bounds because Mike had been a doormat for so long that she expected him to come running when she called.  Only in this case, she didn’t even call – she just presumed that if Candy would ask Mike, then he would naturally help her out because  he’s such a nice guy, her little brother, and yadda yadda yadda.  I know Mike’s sister vaguely, and she’s a lot more put together than Candy.  But covering that fairly solid core is a thick layer of flaky, and volunteering your little brother for moving duty for a woman who’s not even fucking him or related to him is about the extreme limit of sisterly flakiness.

When called on it, neither woman – the flake, or the vice-flake – would take responsibility for their actions, or even acknowledge the imposition on Mike’s time.  They made his unwillingness to pour his time and energy into a rewardless bottomless pit his problem, as if he had somehow attacked them . . . instead of just saying ‘no’.

He got the blowback, too.  This happened just after Thanksgiving, before the holiday season.  By Christmas time a rumor had spread among his family that he was off his medications or he’d had a crisis or he’d otherwise gone crazy.  But when he showed up for Christmas dinner at his mother’s house – with a date, no less – he looked great.  New job, new place, new clothes, and even a date that didn’t eat with her fingers (I told you he had poor selection criteria . . .)

Mike tells me that his obstinate refusal came up at Christmas dinner, too.  His sister was nasty about it and wouldn’t leave it alone, basically trying to rally her other female relatives (and the men, but mostly the women) into a consensus condemning Mike’s behavior.  It didn’t quite go as planned.

I’m not going to do another cute dialogue here (although I’m sure it would be entertaining) but the long and short of it is that Mike’s mom, while initially siding with his sister, eventually decided that her son was within his rights for refusing to help, even if she’d “brought him up better than that”.  His aunts were ambivalent, but tended to side with his sister.

The men in his family, to a man, thought what Mike did was absolutely fine.  He didn’t even need to apologize.  That sparked a brief argument that led to his elderly widower uncle (didn’t catch the name) loudly proclaiming that “you don’t do crap for a woman anymore unless she’s sucking your dick!” at the Christmas dinner table (Mike’s mom makes some killer egg nog, I know for a fact).

Things calmed down after awhile and everyone got friendly again, but apparently it was pretty tense along the gender line for a while.  Mike didn’t care, and he defended himself so passionately and valiantly that he impressed his date.  Enough to get laid.  Score one for Mike.  And after dinner, his sister sought him out and tried to apologize, sort of.

(She also wanted to see if Mike was serious about fucking Candy, because apparently Candy has always had a crush on Mike – even though she didn’t hesitate to reject him – and his “offer” to swap sex for help moving had intrigued her.  Hmm.  I wonder if him being a dick had anything to do with her new-found respect?  Mike told me that while he was still attracted to Candy, physically, her personality was such a negative that it would likely be a struggle for him to get into it, if it ever was going to happen.  But he’s starting to get it.  He snorted scornfully when I mentioned the possibility and said “Maybe a blowjob.  But after that conversation, I wouldn’t fuck her with a stolen dick”.)

This is what Betas, Gammas, Deltas and Omegas all need to realize: women don’t respect dudes who kiss their ass.  Not enough to fuck them.  To most women (and I do recognize there are exceptions, but women in aggregate) the men in their lives fall into a few distinct categories . . . and the eternally unfuckable-but-still-useful-Beta-dude is one of their favorites.

Why?  Because by making him her bitch when it comes to doing stuff, she’s ‘proving’ that men and women can be ‘just friends’.  She might even be proud enough about it to say it to his face.  And he might be dickless enough to agree that, yes, it was purely the power of her personality and sweetness of character that inspired him to sacrifice his Saturday or shell out some bucks or move heavy objects . . . because he’s such a Nice Guy.  He might even get defensive about it.

But what is actually going on is female exploitation of the good graces of the men in their lives.  For all of their robust talk of equality, even Equity Feminists have this nasty habit of trying to rope the men in their lives who aren’t fucking them or related to them to do their bidding and give up their labor for free.  When the tables are turned and suddenly these dudes need favors, these women seem incredibly unhelpful.

Case in point: Perpetual Beta orbitor (a 6) around a fairly hot-but-shallow co-worker (different division)/acquaintance.  He wanted in her pants super-bad.  He followed her around like a puppy and did all sorts of things for a few weeks until he screwed up the courage to ask her out.  She gave him the ‘we’re just good, very special friends’ speech.  He was crushed, stopped following her around so much, and she didn’t even notice.

Then he has a work function (big holiday party for clients) that he needs to attend, and he needs a dinner date.  It’s expected, and he doesn’t have a girlfriend.  He gets a little desperate.  He eventually thinks of his “good, very special friend”.  He asks her, and even though she isn’t doing anything, she “doesn’t think it would be a good idea”.

He pressed her – he needed this – and she still turns him down, forcing him to go stag to the detriment of his career.  He hadn’t implied anything romantic, nothing sexual, just “will you show up and be female for an evening”, no pressure expressed or implied.  But she turned him down cold because “we don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea”.

That’s code for “I find you utterly unfuckable and only good enough to serve me.”

And that’s what “good, very special friends” means to most women when they say it to a dude: you are my bitch.
The question of whether or not men and women can be friends is an interesting one.  It’s been discussed throughout the Manosphere, and while the extremes both make valid arguments, I tend to fall someplace in the middle.  I do think, under the proper circumstances, men and women can be friends.  But they are the exceptions.  The whole “When Harry Met Sally” discussion on the subject is pretty clear that when men and women try to be friends, sex naturally intrudes no matter what else happens.

What are the exceptions?

Well, if you think you’re a Beta and you’re single, stop doing shit for any woman that isn’t a) directly related to you or b) screwing you without some sort of reciprocal agreement in place.  You may develop one (1) hetero female friend who you are NOT interested in sleeping with, and who is NOT interested in sleeping with you, for the direct purpose of helping get each other laid.  A female wingman can be invaluable, if you know what you’re doing, and you can offer her the same service.  A woman who understands Game is a mighty and dangerous thing . . . but if she’s in your corner, it gives you an edge.

If you are married and you’re a Beta, then start uncoupling the assumption your wife makes that you will do what she wants you to do for her friends without complaint or argument.  You have a filial duty to help your unmarried sister-in-law, your mother, your mother-in-law, and your sister.   If you are feeling especially generous, you can extend an annual favor to be used on behalf of your wife’s BFF as well, as a special favor to her.  MAYBE a female neighbor, if her husband can’t help.  But that’s it.

You will, of course, have to accommodate your wife’s agenda – that’s just part of marriage, and you accept that going in – but the moment she starts volunteering you for stuff without asking your permission, you can have this conversation:

“Honey, can you go help Linda move some stuff around?  She needs you to install a dishwasher.”

“Is she going to have sex with me afterward?”

“WHAT?  NO!”

“Oh.  Then are YOU going to have sex with me afterward?”

“(Insert offended comment along the lines of ‘not if your attitude is like that!’ – but anything other than an enthusiastic and positive response should be responded to thus )”

“Oh.  Then I’m not going to help Linda move some stuff around.”

Expect some blowback or explosion . . . the first time.  Maybe even the second.  But telling your wife you aren’t hers to barter with is worth the grief you’ll get initially.  Eventually she’ll realize that promising your attention, time, energy, or money without consultation or permission is extremely disrespectful to you as a man and her husband, and she needs to change.

Men, married or single, really only have a few classes that they lump the women in their lives into.  Understanding that there are widely varying individual responses to the question, most men tend to divide their female acquaintances into these sorts of groups:

Group A: Women I’m Related To
Group B: Women I’m Fucking
Group C: Women I Want To Fuck But Haven’t Fucked Yet
Group D: Women Who I Don’t Want To Fuck
Group E: Women Who Have Made It Clear I Have No Chance Of Fucking Them.
Group F: Women I Am Institutionally Forbidden From Fucking


The “women I’m just friends with and I’m so totally comfortable with that” group is not represented because it is statistically insignificant.

Feminism argues that men and women can and should be “just friends” without regard to gender or sex.  It is this attitude that has allowed countless feminists to poach other women’s husbands under the guise of “being friends”.  Or exploit the labor and resources of their poor Beta orbiters until they are used up – and with as little reciprocation as possible.  Feminism tries to claim that if we ‘just remove the sexual component’ then male/female friendships would regularly grow and blossom just like male/male and female/female friendships.  But we all know what the practical result is.

The practical result is that for most Red Pill men, women should fall under the following categories:

1) Wife/LT Girlfriend
2) Mother/sister/aunt
3) Lesbian neighbor
4) Wife’s BFF
5) Co-workers and Colleagues

That’s it.

(If you can manage to acquire a lesbian neighbor, I highly recommend it. I have a few, and they have never failed me when I’ve needed a power tool or help on a project.  I’ve been more than happy to reciprocate when my own skillset or specialized tools were required.  The lesbians I know do NOT try to take advantage of me or the other men in the neighborhood.  They always make a polite inquiry, ask my permission, and express their gratitude and their willingness to reciprocate.  And I cannot emphasize enough how much fun it can be talking about the pitfalls of a romantic relationship with a woman with a lesbian.    You think I’m misogynistic?  Some of the lesbians I know make Archie Bunker look like Maud.  Lesbians are in a different class of womanhood altogether.  And your lesbian mileage may vary.  But I digress.)

Any attempt to blur the distinction between the above categories is fraught with peril.  It usually leads to an incremental increase in the requests for your assistance, and it is almost never in your best interest.

So take a page from Mike’s book, Betadudes, and start standing up for yourself.  Your time IS valuable, and it should not be wasted on stuff that isn’t going to help you, unless you’re just insanely altruistic.  Don’t let the women in your life set your agenda – that’s YOUR job.  Until you actually have a ring on your finger and a wife in your bed, your time and energy should be as valuable as any professionals . . . and you shouldn’t let it be  exploited by women who have no respect for you.

Just remember: “You’re Such A Nice Guy” isn’t womanly respect, it’s a condescending pat on the fucking head for a servant who has done as instructed.  And it’s the easiest way to kill any erotic feelings a woman might have for you.  So just stop.  They’ll bitch, sure . . . but wait a month or two.  That’s what Mike did.  After the Candy episode, he saw the other areas in his life where women were setting his agenda and making promises on his behalf.  He put a stop to it, and while plenty of them are mad, a couple of them actually got over it enough to call him and ask him out recently.

I can’t quite call Mike an Alpha now, but he’s left his Delta days behind him.  That’s a sign of hope for the Manosphere as glorious as any rainbow.


69 comments:

  1. It's not really a matter of becoming alpha. It's about becoming MORE alpha. This is an awesome story. Good for Mike. There are going to be a lot more stories like this that come out.

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  2. Such is the power of Game that anyone even marginally versed in it could predict Candy's sudden onset of interest in Mike (long-term crush, riiight) and the Feminine Imperative (or the Feminine Social Matrix as you put it) at work at the dinner. Good for the other men for sticking up for Mike too. I bet with that kind of pressure laid to bare, it wasn't easy! Although maybe Mike was the only non-alpha in the group? Doesn't sound likely.

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  3. Great write-up. Absolutely inspirational.

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  4. Hey Ian, I've been thinking about writing my own initiation into Game. I don't really want to start a blog or anything like that, but I think it's quite a story. Would you be interested in posting it?

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    Replies
    1. Write it up and send it to me. I'm not above a guest post. Hell, getting other people to write for you is the highest art of the professional writer.

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  5. A superb piece Mr. Ironwood, superb.

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  6. I use the "tough love" reasoning and really screw them up: Sister, Candy needs a friend who is willing to care for her enough to truly help her. She's screwed her life up so much, it is time to love toughly, and STOP rewarding the behavior that has resulted in the wreck that is her life. I know it is hard, but it is the only way she will heal... (heh)

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    Replies
    1. They never change. I've seen it way too many times. Just let her hit the wall in solitude, with her cats.

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  7. What a great story. I think most of us have been there to some degree, or certainly know some guy in that camp.

    For years I was being volunteered by my wife to help out her friends. When I suddely put an end to it, the look on her face was one of total incomprehension. I can so relate to Mike's story.

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  8. This is the most inspiring thing i have read in a long time!!!

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  9. Right on, Mike! Learning to say "no" to women is hard and terribly scary - and so rewarding on so many levels. Go, Mike!

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  10. I've started that with the female friends in my life. I've noticed that once I became less useful to them, they were around a lot less.

    I don't miss them.

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    Replies
    1. Noticed the same thing about 6 or so months ago. Absolutely fascinating.

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    2. Heh... I got a story for you.

      There was a girl at work, with whom I arrived at the LJBF situation at one point.

      Well, I decided to play this game straight.

      We would met again a couple of times over coffee and I would always lead the discussion. I would ask her about stuff that interested me (she had a couple of hobbies that I was curious about) and in exchange I would download on her the stuff I usually discuss with my buddies - work stuff, hobby stuff, the like.
      I can be quite an earful.
      You know - the thing friends do.

      At one point I had the following SMS discussion:

      me: Hey, a question here - do you know if X(another girl in the office) is seeing someone?
      her: ??? I don't think so. Why do you ask?
      me: Because of reasons. Oh, please don't mention our friendship to her, ok? I don't think she'll believe you that it HASN'T been physical...
      <15 minutes pass, she makes inquiries>
      her: She's single. Hey, she's a good girl, be nice to her.
      me: Ok. Was planning to ask her out for a coffee and a chat later today. As for being nice - no promises. I am a boy, you know :)
      her: ... Hey, what about MY coffee?!
      me: ???
      her: I am a girl, you know!
      (this one - that's an actual quote!)

      Don't think this counts as a strategy, but it can be played for laughs if you find yourself in similar situation.
      If you and a girl, who has LJBFed you, have multiple common female acquittance - drill her for the info and discuss how to lay them.

      Because you are friends, aren't you? :)
      Shouldn't she be willing to help you, her friend?
      And if she does not want to help you - why is she being such a terrible friend?!

      Delete
    3. Delightful! I've never made it any secret that a female wingman can be employed to stunning effect, by a man wise enough to see their advantages and cultivate a relationship (my female wingman was why I ended up with Mrs. Ironwood). Pushing a woman into that position from the friendzone is an excellent way to bring some decision to the relationship - or at least re-ignite some interest.

      If you decide to make a play for her, see if you can get another girl in the office to ask her about you. It's always good to increase the Preselection bonus that way. Make "Let's Just Be Friends" be "Let's Just Be Friends That Get Each Other Laid." It's amazing how a little pressure can clarify the situation. Good luck!

      Delete
  11. I want Mike's mom's recipe for eggnog.

    ReplyDelete
  12. You need a "Nice Guys Start Here" link on your menubar, and link this article to it. Super job of explaining game by example.

    ReplyDelete
  13. I like to hear more storys of the wise elder uncle, tell mike to start blogging :)

    ReplyDelete
  14. A man's labour is his form of reproductive value just as a woman's sexuality is her form of reproductive value.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Labor USED to be a man's reproductive value. Hypergamy never REALLY liked it, but had to put a greater emphasis on it back in the day. Now it's swagger confidence, and charm, regardless if you live in your parent's basement or own your own house.

      Delete
  15. "“you don’t do crap for a woman anymore unless she’s sucking your dick!”"

    So freakin glad I wasn't drinking coffee while reading that. I love outspoken old men.

    ReplyDelete
  16. Gold gold gold!!! Yes! This was an amazing red pill story. Could have been called 'the McFly moment'. Excellent post and excellent story tell.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Also, this texting exchange is quite interesting. You can see the lack of hard frame Mike has:
    8:13 text from Mike: I have plans sorry
    8:15 text from Candy: cancel them I need u!!!!!!!
    8:16 text from Mike: to help u move? WTF?
    8:18 text from Candy: YES!!!!! Need to be out by tonight. Thank you!
    8:19 text from Mike: I didn’t say id do it
    8:21 text from Candy: of course you’ll do it
    8:22 text from Mike: no. good luck.

    He has to say 'WTF?' and 'I didn't say I'd do it.'
    Now if that were me, the exchange might have went like this:

    8:13 text from Mike: I have plans -sorry-
    8:15 text from Candy: cancel them I need u!!!!!!!
    8:16 text from Mike: haha good luck with that (to help u move? WTF?)
    8:18 text from Candy: YES!!!!! Need to be out by tonight. Thank you!
    8:19 text from Mike: no response (I didn’t say id do it)
    8:21 text from Candy: of course you’ll do it
    8:22 text from Mike: Nah got bitches to fuck

    ReplyDelete
  18. Ian, what's the flip side of this? I'm a woman interested in a guy I fucked briefly last summer and have been friends with ever since (with dirty talk mixed in). I want more (dating, relationship) and not just a FWB. Recently have decided that I can't even be friends with him because he's not giving me what I want. Do I have any options to get him to come around to the idea that we should be dating so we can be friends AND fucking?

    Thanks.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I am not Ian, but let me chip in 2 cents, in hopes that it will clear the situation a bit.

      I think there is a very important thing to understand:
      There is no way to make A GIVEN MAN "come around to the idea we should be dating".
      Just like there is no way for a guy to make A GIVEN GIRL "come around to the fact that she really needs my dick in her mouth"

      There IS however a clean and legal way to lay a choice.

      For girls the choice is "we are either dating - or we are not fucking"
      For boys "we are either fucking - or we are not dating"

      In the terminology of Athol Kay this is called Phase 4 - "Issuing an ultimatum" And Athol makes it very clear - there is a chance that your ultimatum will be rejected. That your feelings WILL BE HURT.

      And if you are rejected - you accept it and look for another mate. Ultimatum DOES NOT guarantee success. It guarantees that you do not waste anymore of your time on an ambiguous situation in which you are not getting what you want!

      So, unless Ian says otherwise, my suggestion would be to pull up your big girl panties, arrange a meeting on a non-threatening neutral ground, and lay it as it is.

      Delete
    2. I'd say, firstly, that you have to establish what kind of dude he is: a Bull Alpha stocking a harem, or a Wolf Alpha on the prowl for an eventual long-term mate? Trying to make a Wolf out of a Bear is a daunting prospect -- it can be done, I suppose, but the stakes are high and the chance of failure or drama is big.

      If he is a Wolf - he might consider settling down with the right woman - then you at least know you've got a chance. If he's a Bull, that's just an invitation to misery. How can you tell? You have to spend time with him and find out - sincerely - what he wants out of life. That means doing more than just screwing . . . and if he isn't into more than just screwing, that's a pretty clear indicator.

      I don't think you need to issue an ultimatum, just yet. Get more information . . . quietly. Nothing spooks a man more than realizing he's being stalked. But once you have more data, you can make a more informed decision on whether to proceed.

      Sure, it sounds cold and calculating compared to "true love", but it's also a much wiser way to proceed. You can be infatuated with anyone - but doing your due diligence before you allow yourself to be put in that position is just good sense.

      Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!

      Delete
    3. OP here. Appreciate the replies. To be clear, I haven't had sex with him since I realized I wanted more and he didn't (more than 6 months ago). He is definitely a Wolf. He initiates conversation almost every day, would fuck me if he could, but says he doesn't want to date because "it's/he's complicated." My gut is to cut all ties if only to get him out of my mind as a distraction, but will that then eliminate the remote chance he becomes interested in dating? Trying not to feed my hamster. Thank you!

      Delete
    4. He's not going to become interested in dating. You've been "friend zoned." I've seen it happen to dozens of friends and it's happened to me.

      He's willing to have more sex with you. He likes you. He even respects you. But, for whatever reason, you're not wife material.

      Don't waste more time and emotional energy on him. Cut off all contact and move on.

      Delete
  19. Hi there! This blog post could not be written much better!
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    ReplyDelete
  20. In LJBFs, how many LJBF acceptances by guys result in a genuine reciprocal friendship?

    How many girls give real friendship to a Beta (Delta and lower) and not just take his friendship?

    In my experience as a sucker/chump accepting an LJBF offer, it results in one of either outcome: A, The LJBF offer is insincere, a formality in a rejection, and she avoids me thereafter. Or B, she’s willing to continue taking benefits from me as her 'friend', but she's unwilling or at least very reluctant to put herself out to give me (non-sexual) friendship benefits in kind.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If she's really put herself in the LJBF category, then start blatantly using her as an asset, along the lines of "All right, you want to be friends. Well, friends help each other get laid. Which of your pals is a good prospect?" If she balks at this, snort and say, "I guess we have a different idea of what friends are. I'll call you next time I want to play Barbies," and arrogantly stomp away.

      Every now and then, you can find a girl who has no trouble being your wingman, even if she's not personally interested in you. In fact, there is a certain kind of woman who gets a perverse sense of pleasure by assisting a man in a seduction. Find these women. They are worth being friends with.

      Delete
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  24. Great post. Good for Mike. Your analysis reminds me of Athol Kay's Shreck, Princess Fiona, and Donkey analogy. Spot on. I agree, men and women can't be friends in the way that women are friends with women, and men are friends with me. I was introduced into game about a year ago and it has opened my eyes. Keep up the good work.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Ian, correct me if I am wrong but I have noticed an interesting trend regarding beta males described in the Manosphere and some of my friends/family dudes who did not get to graduate in their lives to a man level continue to share the same characteristics. These people are just hugely unaware of their own value as a man. By that I mean they have no clue how to redistribute their resources in a most effective way.

    They do not realize that the possession of a desirable value (car, ability to help out, time etc) gives them certain amount of power ( in this context, an ability to influence or lead ) over the relationship. Take for example women. Their looks make them desirable as many beta guys kiss up to them to get the girl. So much money, energy and resources have been lost on that in the past. Most Beta guys simply gives out their power (and resources) left and right just for the promise of sex (strip clubs, chat-babes-phone-line industry).

    Do you think all it needs to be done is just to remind those guys that they are holding aces (resources, strength, dominance, income etc) in their pockets and that gives them more power over woman than other way around?

    I would appreciate your thoughts on the subject and few pointers for the new blogger starting his journey in the topic.

    All the best and I will be looking forward to hear from you. I also wait eagerly for the release of your book.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Me, too! It's still held up in editorial review, the Purgatory of all writers.

      I'd like to say that all we had to do is remind these Beta-and-Below dudes about their own value, but they've been programmed with a lifetime of shame associated with their success and their masculinity. Breaking that conditioning is not an easy process. Doing it without help is frightening.

      Delete
  26. Do you want to know why his sister was so pissed? It's because the way she maintains status amongst her friends is by renting out Mike's time.

    This also explains why Candy is so irritated by Mike's wanting something in exchange. She already paid the sister (in some indirect fashion) for him, and so to her this is double-dipping. That's why she says "your sister said you could do it". It's like waving the receipt at the cashier and saying "I already paid for these items".

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. 'renting out Mike's time'

      That seems to imply that Mike is viewed as a slave, and his sister is a slave master who leases/rents him out to maintain or improve her social status. Much like slave owners did in pre-civil war America. Except the difference then was that the slaves 'knew' that they were slaves and acted accordingly (either rebelled or became 'workshy'). Men such as Mike aren't aware that they are being exploited (because of a whole myriad of soul-destroying cultural memes) and so don't rebel, until of course the absurdity of it all becomes too much, and a chink of light/consciousness breaks through.

      Delete
  27. This article should be called "Mike has a Break Down"

    Here is what I got out of the article:

    Mike gets a call from his sister's female friend that he is clearly (somewhat) attracted to and she is attracted to him. She wants him to help her move. They will be alone together, his sister isn't coming.

    Candy is a flaky girl that needs someone to help her move and she needs a stable boyfriend, and let's not forget that she is attracted to Mike.

    She is trying to kill two birds with one stone, in a socially acceptable way for a female.

    "Mike was attracted to Candy once, years ago, but her personality and proximity soon made her a woman to tolerate, not to date. Besides, as his sisters BFF, she was hands-off."

    Translation: Mike never made a move, because Mike is a pussy.

    These are the women you don't make a move on Mike (from the article):

    1. Women I’m Related To
    2. Women Who I Don’t Want To Fuck
    3. Women Who Have Made It Clear I Have No Chance Of Fucking Them.
    4. Women I Am Institutionally Forbidden From Fucking
    5. Wife’s BFF
    6. Your male friend's women. (I added this one, but I'm sure Mike won't follow it)

    When Candy calls Mike he refuses to help her. He calls her out on her plan to get her furniture moved and to get a boy friend and he demands sex from her. Mike is frustrated. Mike is having a breakdown. Mike is a pussy.

    Mike demands sex for services rendered. Mike is a gold digging pussy.

    His sister calls Mike and asks in "disbelief" "You want to screw Candy?" Mike admits that yes, he does want to.

    His sister and Candy still want him to go over there and "help" her.

    No wait a minute, they are demanding that he go there and "help". It doesn’t get any better than that Mike.

    Does Mike go and “help” Candy? No, he doesn’t. Why? Because Mike is a pussy.

    Mike if you want sex from Candy:

    1. She has to be attracted to you. She is.
    2. You have to spend time alone with her. You had your chance.
    3. You have to lead the interaction, take full responsibility for it while allowing her to have plausible deniability. Mike can't do this because, Mike is a pussy.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Meh - you're ignoring the history of using from both Candy and the sister. His mistake was explaining his reasoning - a wasted effort, and it only gives them ammo.

      You are also missing that Mike doesn't like Candy. The "would you screw her" is a "yeah, I suppose so", not a "I have always dreamed of this moment!".

      But you might be right. A man with better game and social awareness could have parlayed this into sex. Mike is a pussy. But you are expecting a one-legged man to run the hurdles.

      Delete
    2. This article is blaming the women, Candy and Mike's sister for Mike being taken advantage of.

      Mike is not being taken advantage of. Mike is being presented with an opportunity that is as good as it gets with women, but he is unprepared to take advantage of it. Mike is frustrated that he has no game and he is taking it out on Candy.

      If this article is real, and I have my doubts, Mike wants Candy, otherwise he would never have demanded sex from her in his frustration. Why mention sex to a women you are not attracted to? She may not be the ideal woman, but he wants her bad.

      What really makes this article so ridiculous is that Mike can easily change what is wrong with him. For many men, a girl like Candy would not be attracted to them, and nothing they could do would ever change that.

      Mike won’t change though, and it is articles like this that support him in his ignorance.



      Delete
    3. Refusing to been taken advantage once more by the sister and the sister friends is being presented an opportunity?

      lol, good luck with miss Hand and her five daughter, at least they will always be there when the opportunity present itself.

      Delete
    4. @Pete: You couldn't be more wrong.

      So let me get this straight: Candy and his sister have made a career of exploiting Mike's good nature, filial duty, and his resources, with no compensation or reciprocation of any kind . . . and it's HIS fault?

      That is precious.

      Of course I'm blaming the women . . . for putting him that position in the first place. I'm also blaming Mike for letting them. This (and yes, it actually happened, I know Mike [although that's not his real name] and I've been working with him for months, now. Why am I blaming the women? Because they refused to deal with their own crap to begin with, and then expected -- EXPECTED -- Mike to save them from their own incompetence. And no, he's not particularly attracted to Candy, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't do her. Even bad sex is still pretty good, for a dude.

      What you see as an "easy" thing to fix, millions of Gammas, Deltas and Betas have no idea. They're just trying to be "nice" to people who have no intention of being "nice" in return, at least not in a way that they would prefer.

      So just how is he being "ignorant"? Should he have bent over, grabbed his ankles, and let the girls run roughshod over him? I am eagerly awaiting your reply.

      Delete
    5. @Pete: "Mike demands sex for services rendered. Mike is a gold digging pussy."

      How the hell do you get that? Mike suggested a legitimate trade. That's hardly being a "gold digging pussy".

      Yes, he is a bit of a pussy. Has been for years. Now he's waking up -- and expecting him to manifest fully-formed Game is not a realistic expectation.

      Delete
    6. I have a new name for this article.

      "What does a girl have to do to get f-ed around here."


      Hey Anonymous, if you tell a woman,

      "The only way I’d come and help you move today is if you paid for gas, paid for lunch, and then fucked me rotten afterwards. Are you likely to do that?”

      And she still want you to come over alone and "help" her, do you think you have a shot with her? I do.

      Poor Candy, she likes Mike. She did about as much as a woman will do to make it easy for him, they won't go any further, it's just not in their nature, but Mike, like anonymous, has no game. They can't even recognize an opportunity, let alone capitalize on it.

      Right now Candy is moving her furniture alone, and lonely. The pitiful consequence of a mans failure to act in harmony with the laws of nature while we are busy on an internet blog congratulating Mike for his "break through" and being instructed on how manipulative women can be, and on the "proper" way to behave as men.

      Unless I had some serious pressing issue to deal with, I would be over at Candy's place helping her move and trying to escalate it to sex.

      If I failed to get with her, so what, at least I "told" her what I want in a way women can understand. She will know I want her, and think twice before calling me again for "help" if she's not interested.

      Under the circumstances though I think I'd have a pretty good shot of getting with her.

      Delete
    7. Ian,

      What does being nice have to do with anything? Most of the time being nice is a substitute for some form of inadequacy.

      If you have a job, it is most likely based on hard skills you possess. It is those valuable hard skills that allow you to be strong, confident and to some degree arrogant with your employer. If some how you lost those skills, you would no longer have anything to offer your employer so you would have to resort to being “nice”, an ass kisser, to keep your job. This would not work for long, if at all, and eventually you would be fired.

      It works the same way with women. Women want certain qualities in a man. If you do not possess these qualities, you cannot substitute, niceness, being a “nice guy”. Most women will dismiss you immediately, but there are some that will keep you around to feed their egos. How do you recognize these women? When you make a move on them, they will reject you, because they are not attracted to you. That’s why it’s important to make a move.

      Many guys believe that if you are “nice” to woman, they will reward you with sex. This is untrue. When it comes to sex, a high value woman evaluates a man like a drill instructor. A man’s looks and his every behavior and actions is scrutinized, in her determination to see if he is fit to breed with. This is survival of the fittest, and the law of nature at work. If you pass her tests she will have sex with you, sometimes immediately if you are good enough, if you don’t, then no amount of “niceness” will matter. You have to fix what’s wrong; if you can, or go find another woman, luckily there are plenty and they’re standards vary depending on their own perceived value. So the good news is, if you are a 5 out of 10 man, there is a woman for you, but unfortunately she will also be a 5 out of 10.

      Delete
  28. excellent. i'm linking this.

    i covered this a few days ago and i'll ALWAYS respond to women that i'm not sleeping with when they want me to perform "boyfriend duty"-

    "look, we're cool, but we ain't fucking."

    never had it fail.

    good to say your boy finally had his balls drop. it's always good to say guys wake up from the matrix.

    ReplyDelete
  29. I was going to suggest adding another category of women for "business/nonsocial contacts"--sales clerks, bank tellers, other drivers on the road, etc.--but I realized that the nature of that type of interaction renders them effectively sexless. Grocery Bagger Tom is essentially identical to Grocery Bagger Laura.

    ReplyDelete
  30. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    ReplyDelete
  31. Outstanding advice. When Harry Met Sally was right, as I learned far too late. Your time is far too valuable to waste in the LJBF zone UNLESS . . .

    She has lots of friends that are REAL possibilities.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Pete Wood is a woman.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. There's a lot of truth in this line from the Door's song, People Are Strange.

      "Women seem wicked when you're unwanted"

      Delete
  33. Ian,

    “Case in point: Perpetual Beta orbitor (a 6) around a fairly hot-but-shallow co-worker (different division)/acquaintance.”

    I agree with you in this case, if you are in a "relationship" like this with a woman you must end it.

    You make a move and ask her out. If she says no, that's it, you are done. Any time spent with her will lower your value to yourself and the people around you.

    Notice, I am blaming the relationship, because for a high status male, that same woman would be source of fun and pleasure.

    I have to blame the guy in this case too though. He was trying substitute "niceness" for his male inadequacy and hoping she would buy it. She didn't. They never do.

    At least he asked her out though.

    This is totally different from the case of Mike and Candy.
    Mike clearly had a shot; Candy liked him, moving her furniture his opportunity, but he didn't make move.

    ReplyDelete
  34. I have a hard time believing that Pete Wood is not a female. Unless he is a very irrational mangina.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What kind of reply are you expecting from a man, Professor?

      We have all known guys like this:

      “Case in point: Perpetual Beta orbitor (a 6) around a fairly hot-but-shallow co-worker (different division)/acquaintance.”

      I worked with a guy like this; the girl actually called him, her puppy.
      You can't help a guy like that. No matter how many times you tell him "the girl doesn't like you, get over it" He won't listen. If he is your friend he will make you look weak by association. This kind of weakness causes a visceral reaction in me. I can't wait to watch him get humiliated by her. He deserves it.

      Later, she came on to me. I blew her off. Not all women who use guys this way are “fairly hot” (not hot enough for me with that personality). Sometimes women get rejected too. I’m an “asshole” that “nice guys” complain women are attracted to.

      Delete
  35. @Pete Wood:

    Mike couldn't have banged Candy during the move because she still saw him in the long term frame of being her orbiter, beta moving boy, and supplicant. To switch it around mid-frame would require skills that he obviously didn't have or he wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.

    He now has a chance because he blew her off and therefore hit the frame reset button. Now he gets to control the frame. The frame reset is the only way you can get out of a LJBF. Another way to reset is to go away for a long time and come back with something significantly different or intriguing to offer, whether it is more confidence, experience, etc


    ReplyDelete
  36. I do believe the good Reverend Ironwood outdid himself with this one. I posted my take on it here:

    http://didactsreach.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-pedestal-shatters.html

    Ian, whatever advice you gave "Mike" about how to deal with this situation was spot on. The guy needed it, and his story is an inspiration to everyone who's ever been LJBFed by a cute girl and wants to know how to nuke that s*** from orbit.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Bravo. That story was fantastic. Good on "Mike".

    ReplyDelete
  38. I've had one "female friend" relationship in my life. It happened almost accidentally. She was someone I knew in my 20's who became like a sister to me. We never were attracted to one another, she coached me in my relationship with my wife before we got married, threw a wedding shower for my wife, and then we moved into the apartment building next to her. She became a good friend of my wife. I'll never forget the day she came over all excited to tell me about the "hot guy" she met that eventually became her husband. In every way possible except being a blood relation, she and I were truly like brother and sister.

    But I had plenty of women offer the "just friends" ploy. I always knew what it was, and on several occasions just threw it back in their face by telling them that I wasn't interested in a "just friends" relationship. You can't put up with that crap.

    However, that doesn't mean that you always have to reject the female who asks for/needs a favor. Creating goodwill among the female population that knows you is not necessarily a bad thing. It only becomes bad when you are taken for granted, and they start feeling entitled to demand your favors for nothing in return.

    Ultimately, if helping someone out makes you feel good about yourself that day, go ahead and do it, and don't worry about being "used." Realtistically, we all get "used" from time to time. But always remember that you have a choice - and that choice is yours alone. Never feel compelled to do it just because someone is whining and pleading.

    The reason Mike had to make such a drastic break is that he had established a pattern of being a doormat. He had to break out of the rut. But don't take it to an extreme. It is OK to be a nice guy, and help out if you enjoy doing it. But if someone doesn't have the decency to realize that they are not entitled to your help, then cut them off. It's one thing to do someone a favor with no expectation of reciprocation. It's quite another to feed a leech.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I agree with you mostly, but this was a classless remark made by Mike to a girl that didn’t even get a chance to reject him. He never asked her out.


      "The only way I’d come and help you move today is if you paid for gas, paid for lunch, and then fucked me rotten afterwards. Are you likely to do that?”

      Mike assumes that women see him as a;
      Perpetual Beta orbiter, beta moving boy, and supplicant, etc, etc, etc, because that's how he sees himself.

      "We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are."
      -anais nin

      Have you guys ever heard of the book "More sex is safer sex"? It's an economics book.

      The premise is that when a "nice guy" doesn't have sex with a woman, he puts her at greater risk of getting a disease from a player.

      Again, let me stress, Mike needs to change his behavior.

      Delete
    2. He did. That's what ticked you off.

      Delete
  39. I actually think that mike let the back and forth go on far too long. In the same situation I would of cut it off said: good luck with the move but I am starting to run late with the stuff I have to do today. Talk to you later bye. Then turned the cell phone off and stayed uncontactable.

    As for the family response I would have thought some of the women would have understood given that most of there friends would have died pulling something stupid like is on them.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Yeah, but he was enjoying himself.

    ReplyDelete
  41. Interesting article, and lots of great points. I appreciate Pete Wood's points, too (I think it's another possible interpretation of the story, although perhaps less likely).

    However, when I see this kind of stuff in the Manosphere, I always have to wonder:

    Am I the only person who honestly has female friends who are, you know, just friends? Not "friends" as a code word for someone I'd like to fuck but can't get up the courage to make a move: just people whose company I enjoy who happen to be female.

    There's an implication in all this talk that because I am a man, I should want to fuck just about any woman in my life. I reject this idea as sophomoric: there are a lot of women out there (and many very interesting ones), but the ones I find attractive enough to consider "getting with" are a small minority.

    I have had, and continue to have, many wonderful female friends whose company I enjoy from time to time, and who I have no interest in sexually.

    Of course, they know where I stand and never ask for this kind of bullshit "favour" without being polite, respectful, and grateful about it. (Just as a good male friend would.) A "friend" like this Candy is just a leech. A real friend would never impose on you like that without offering something in return. The Mike-Candy relationship here isn't a friendship, it's an ambiguous one-sided flirting game that only benefits one party.

    Maybe all my female friends want to screw *me*. I suppose it's possible. But I'm pretty sure at least some of them don't, which invalidates the whole theory that men and women can't be friends.

    Or am I just an anomaly? You, male reader: think of your female acquaintances, friends of sister/girlfriend, coworkers, etc. Do you really want to screw them all? I sure don't.

    ReplyDelete
  42. I give a standing ovation to Mike as a woman. His responses were strong-minded but cultured, I'd have done the same (at least I hope so). But it may be unfortunate that he mentioned sex at all, especially if he wasn't even attracted to her enough anymore. That sends a wrong message. I'd have resort to pressuring her into friendly favors in exchange.

    ReplyDelete